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(sorry don't know how to make this a clickable link).



An article in the UK's Daily Delegraph dealing with the "every day passers buy" reaction to a lady wearing real fur. It is clearly in response to the media driven controversy over Madonna wearing the chincilla coat. The article is loosely favourable to the fur wearer, but I cannot help feeling a little annoyed. The premise of the article is that if one wears a fur in the Uk they can expect to be victimised and that this is the generally held opinion of the British public. The author completely absolves herslef of any hard held opersonal pinion on the issue.


This attitude is completely unnaceptable and it is prevalent amongst virtually all UK journalists who comment on the fashion industry - an industry that has probably never been more pro fur.


I know many fur wearers in London and no-one (other than my wife and I on one occasion when we walked into the Hockley fur salon both wearing mink in front of the par for the course anti fur demonstration that always used to be parked accross the road) has ever been on the receiving end of any anti fur abuse. Most people are indiferent, many would love to wear real fur if they could afford it then there are about 30 % who are anti on the grounds of animal rights and more particularly the socialist type politics of envy - not unlike the recent backlash in this country against the drivers of 4x4 sports utility vehicle drivers (of which I am also a member).


Why wont Uk journalists who are pro fur (as clearly this partilcular journalist is despite her claims to the contrary) simply come out and say they they love the stuff and agre with the politics?? They always have to hedge their bets against some illusory backlash from an organisation that tried to get fishing banned a few years ago and has been discredited at every juncture. They are still terrified of a threat that has not existed in this country since the early nineties - if it ever really existed. The problem in Britain is that we are all so reserved and afraid of being made a spectacle of in fron tof strangers - however unlikley- that the mere thought of being shouted at in the street sends us straight off to the faux fur department of out local cut price department store.


Unfortunately the cold weather has not yet come to us in the Uk but, nevertheless I promise you, that this year when the chill does come, there will be a celebration of fur on the London streets - and I will be wearing my brand new ankle length cross fox coat that I have just bought from efurs4less!!


From severely disgruntled fur wearer in Earls Court, London.

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A commendable effort but she needs to get her understanding of the Fur Industries standards for processing the animals they kill.


Too many false lines from ReTA.


What is flummoxed?










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Looks like it has to be written via snail mail to HILARY ALEXANDER AND BRYONY MORGAN at

Telegraph Media Group, 111 Buckingham Palace Road, London SW1W 0DT.


Please don't ignore these tasks. I know they are a pain but belive me a fur ban is on the horizon unless we get our collective shit together.


If you doubt for one moment the validity of the arguments do not forget to read ultravixens link on fur farm welfare scientist inspection. Then in a microcosmic classic which I just found posted by someone on an anti PETA forum , the battle between traditional sustainable use aiding conservation versus the developers, you must read this:




The Evenk used to make a decent living farming furbearers too remember even under communism to some extent.


Back to the article. I think Bryony looks pretty hot in chinchilla no?

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The premise of the article is that if one wears a fur in the Uk they can expect to be victimised and that this is the generally held opinion of the British public.


You can only be a victim of such abuse if you ALLOW yourself to be vitimized.


If somebody tries to accost you, the first thing you should to is walk away. If they follow you, keep walking and tell them to "GO AWAY!" If they don't go away, you have the right to assume that they mean to do you harm and you can take all necessary and lawful means to protect yourself, up to and including the use of force if you believe that your life is in danger.


If somebody gave me or my wife (or anybody in my company) trouble like that and they didn't go away they would quickly find themself lying face down on the pavement with their wrists twisted up between their shoulder blades and my knee pressing all 270 pounds of my body weight into the small of their back.


If that person CONTINUED to cause trouble or if more people joined in the fray, they would hear six words from me: "Please don't make me HURT you!"

If, after being given the chance to walk away and being warned, they persist -- If, after my demonstration of my willingness to defend myself, they continue to fight -- If after being given a final warning, they don't leave me alone... He or she would be VERY SORRY, indeed!


It doesn't matter WHAT country you live in, you have the RIGHT to defend yourself from all credible threats of harm. That includes the right to use force if necessary to defend against somebody else using force.


These P∂TA-freaks need to get that fact pounded into their thick friggin' skulls! There are people out there prepared to defend themselves if called upon to do so. They could end up in a LOT of trouble if they play their games with the wrong person!


More people need to take this attitude regardless of whether they like or dislike fur or whether they are on one side or the other about ANY issue. There are too many people that are getting the idea that, because they THINK they are right, they have the right to hurt other people to "prove" their point.


Let me tell you! That just ain't so!


Until more people stand up for their rights and adopt this posture: "Don't hurt other people but be ready to defend yourself if somebody tries to hurt you." there will be more and more crazy idiots emboldended by peoples' seemingly passive stance.

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I agree that writer is a bit of a peta fed girl, no? Is there one bit of news, one article out there that speaks of fur in a positive light? I rather think it is the modern villains attire, and that is the only way it is acceptable. Disgusting that society is so removed from all things natural, such as fur. What would people do if they couldn't go to the store and buy food or drink, but had to go hunt for it, harvest it themselves?! They'd die in 2 weeks.


Touch that is terrible about the Evenk peoples. Was there any other info, a place to write to on their behalf or anything you found?


Hey I had another one of those anti run ins... this time in a department store, Elder Beermans. Now, normally I do not go into these stores anyway, waste of money, but I had time to kill while my boots were being re-heeled. After shopping a bit and on my way out, two clerks were clearing up (half hour to close) their jewelry counter. After I walk by and she thinks I am out of earshot, the woman says something pissy about my coat (the long red fox). So I turn on a heel and say, "You know I heard you and I believe it's my right." I was already having a bad night, so I decided to leave it at that... but the more I think of it the more angry I get. This shop clerk expressing judgement and disdain for a customer... I was never allowed to show an opinion such as that when I worked retail! We had to kiss ass not insult customers! So, I have to return to the area tomorrow and I'm going to ask who was working that counter and make a complaint, actually I plan on raising a stink about it, nicely as I can of course. Ha! These people who can't just keep their lives and opinions to themselves... they just run rampant if not put in check. So, check 'em!

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One of my favorite 'true-isms': Perception = Reality.


The instances of people in furs being accosted by animal rights activists are few and far between. I remember a couple of occurances in New York City in the 1990s, but haven't heard of any in recent times. When I've been out with other people in fur, never once has any 'animal rights activist' done anything to anybody.


I think this is another example of the press taking isolated instances of conduct and sensationalizing them to suit whatever its cause of the day happens to be...



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FLinFL your are right!


My insurance lady that insures most of the furriers says this has been a PETA strategy to terrorize people to not wear furs.


She has never had a single claim filled for this.



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Have you seen the video attached to the telegraph article, it's nice to see that people love the fur.



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I am not worried about PETA and not woried about abuse. They can both be dealt with easily.


What wories me is the press being so biased because journalists consistently fail to report both sides. The fur industry is useless at putting its case forward in the press and should have people to quote on all these issues. The same was true with foxhunting before the countryside alliance.


We need to organise, canvass, lobby.


Because the real trheat is the ignoramus's in political establishment who will react to the one sided press. Fur will be banned unles we are extremely vocal in its defense.


Miss T....you can read more about the Evenk and other indigenous tribes at http://www.survival-international.org/

significantly the Bushmen won their case for hunting . Howver while rights are being established over traditional use, until we get it into the press and politicina thick skulls that that means accepting real trade with animal produce nothing will really change. As we speak the british government is preparing law against bearskins from the Cree and sealskins from Greenland.

Nobody here from the UK should be voting labour as they are in the hands of AR organisations who have bribed them to the tune of

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Ms T. I do believe that it is indeed very important that in these incidents that you report them to the boss, etc. That is a major way that we have to fight these things. Report to the boss. Report to whoever you can to make it very difficult for them. If the person is threatened with job loss, they will realize that is indeed either a terrorist activity or close to it (depending on what they do) they will begin to think twice about it. You might even consider to make a complaint to the head office of that store as well. I have often found that such complaints are indeed listened to for the most part, as the folks there do pay attention to anything that is negative publicity. If you mention that you are going to tell every friend you have what happened and post it on every "Board" you can find, they soon come to attention.


I agree with FL and Linda as well. The press pays attention to one side of this issue and not the other. A great looking woman wearing a fur coat is not news. A person with paint thrown at them is news. But as many times as I have warn fur, few have been the comments like that. More often it is like happened just this past weekend. "Your coat is gorgeous! What kind of fur is that! That is beautiful!"


*By the way, I agree that the gal is a bit of a PETA. BUT... she is saying that "Fur almost won me over". So, yes the last bit is a bit of a negative, but not as much so as you would think. It does show how and why people are being convinced to think the proper way on this.



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Yes go for it Miss T. Make an official complaint to the store.


I have also been wondering about a calling card. With the essential points

on which can be handed to people.


It could say something like:


Hello. You have encountered someone who supports the use of fur in fashion. Here is why:

1.Fur is an infinitely renewable resource which is eco friendly, recycleable and biodegradbale.....unlike the wasteful use of petro chemicals from which all synthetic clothes are made which are contributing to mass animal extinctions through grave habitat detsruction.

2. 20% of all furs are the produce of native peoples whose fur trade acts as a barrier to development. The Sami the Cree, the Evenk The Yakut etc etc. Condemning them is economic and cultrual imperialism and is not conducive to conservation goals.

3. Welfare on fur farms in the west is very high....weaning for example is

only correctly done on fur farms and not with any other farmed animal. A report of top EEC welfare scientists found fur farming welfare "pretty good" and this report was doctored and surpressed for political goals. PETA have failed miserably over 20 years to come up with any evidence of mistreatment on western fur farms.

4. PETA do nothing for conservation and their only practical effort is a rescue centre which executes 12 000 rehomable animals a year. They are fighting fur because if they win then all other animla use is also ethically wrong including all pets and domestic animlas which their stated aim is to "eradicate".

5. Many politicians and media are friendly towards animal rights groups because of huge financial reward through donations and advertising budgets, and they pander to the politics of envy.

6. 400 designers have used fur in their collection this years and 1000 models have worn it. Outspoken pro fur people include women like Madonna, Kate Beckinsale, Lara Flynn Boyle and Christina Ricci. Inteligent women. On the nati side are Paris Hilton and Pam Anderson. You be the judge. In addition former rather go naked than wear fur models Cindy Crawford and Elle Macpherson are now spokeswomen for Blackglama.

This is because these people are familiar with the arguments that the press in the grip of PETA editorial frinedliness do not want you to hear.

7. Fur is a beautiful natural material made mostly from rodents and animals like fox and mink...because of the fur trade and hunting the most common mammal predators on the planet. Many are completely domestciated breed such as the siberian fox, unsuited to life in the wild. Banning fur farming will mean the eradictaion of all these animals and their incredible bloodlines with them. Exotic rare species are not used by the fur trade which is under CITES rules.

8. Most designers want to use fur as it is a beautiful material, and is glamorous, sexy and has an undeniable allure to all those who understand

what it can do for the wearer. The whole couture industry understand that and Chanel Gucci, Dior, Hermes, V and R and others all use fur as their piece de resistance in all winter shows.

9. If you do not agree with fur nobody is forcing you to wear it. Howver nobody has the right to force their morality on another person...espcially if they wear leather or petro chemical synthetics or cheap gm cotton.

10. Fur is warm, and conserves energy. The alternative is heating and clothing made from oil, both of which are the main culprots of global warming. Turn he heat down and wear fur wool tweed and other natural materials. Synthetics do not keep you warm therefore contribute to global climate damage, threatening billions of animals.


Thankyou for your time, hopefully reading this will make you think about fur in a different light. Here are some links you may want to follow up:


and then list the links, such as



and the Evenk link, and the EEC report link and those listed in the library.

if you want some more please pm me.


A nice card if someone comes up and engages you can be poltely given with a smile, wheteher they are pro anti or as is usually the case just curious about something so glamorous and beautiful.


You can print this out, decorate the reverse with pictures from the fashion industry etc whatever.


I think this would be a good idea. Such cards were produced by the countryside alliance a few years ago and by people dishing them out it changed public opinion to the extent whre a reversal of the ban on hunting will be imminent when the Tories get in a they are 1/5 with the bookies to do.


Remember this card/sticker idea was used extensively by AR organisations in getting their message over. If we all do this and just hand them out to people who we meet who question, comment, look....pro anti or curious....it will make a difference. It's Johnny Appleseed.


One of the main problems with fur wearing is the rpreconceived ideas of other people. They expect you to be rich, snobby, arrogant and selfish.

When they find out you are intelligent, sincere, friendly and approachable they nearly always change their mind about fur.

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That would be a ToS 8 1/2 x 11 card and that's not mm.


I'll write her a letter.If I can't muster it up before I leave I'll do it after I get back in January.













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It may just be me, but the reporter in the video seemed like she could be open to fur. Granted she was getting a bit whiny with the way the coats are made and such as the video ended. But look closely at her expression when she talks about having to take it back to the store. It looks like she doesn't want too.

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This shop clerk expressing judgement and disdain for a customer... I was never allowed to show an opinion such as that when I worked retail! We had to kiss ass not insult customers!


A lot of those stores have rules in their employee handbook about being rude to customers. Cinemark USA, the movie theater company, actually has a clause in their employee handbook to the effect, "Verbally running-down a customer is a terminable offense." In other words, there are some offenses that you simply get written up for and you have to get "three strikes" before you're fired but customer rudeness can get you fired on the spot.


Don't just approach the department manager or the clerk at the customer service desk. Ask to see the Personnel Manager and ask them to show you the appropriate clause in their employee handbook. If there is such a clause, and I suspect there is, take the employee in question to the mat. Then, at the last second, tell the Personnel Manager that, if the employee writes you a personal, handwritten apology (Not typed! HAND WRITTEN!) and a copy of said letter goes into the employees file, that you will relent.


Now, with regard to my comments above I have to say that, as much as I believe in ones right to self defense, I do believe in the "Theodore Roosevelt School Politics" saying, "Speak softly and carry a big stick..."


I sum it up like this: When you feel physically secure and know how to defend yourself, should the need arise, you don't NEED to always be on your guard, proverbially cowering in fear. You know the consequences of your actions and you use your intellect before you use physical force. 99 times out of 100, if you use your intellect, you won't need to use force.


I used to be a security guard in a hotel. In nearly 3 years of dealing with rowdy guests and throwing drunken idiots out of bars I only laid my hands on another person TWO TIMES. One time was to assist a police officer in effecting an arrest on a suspect who resisted. The other time was to catch a shoplifter who tried to run away. Every other single time I was able to say, simply, "Don't do that!", or, "Please do as I ask."


I never mean to say that people should take to vigilante justice when dealing with P∂ta-freaks. That would be just as bad as what they are doing. But I do think that people need to feel secure in their own choices and not worry about what others think. As long as you aren't breaking any laws or hurting other people those people can't tell you what to do.


That's what I mean is that people shouldn't be cowed by such psychological abuse from such uninformed idiots.

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I hereby nominate Worker to head of security forces in the Fur Maquis.


With Earendil as head of the Armed Forces, and Miss T head of special forces.


OFF as spokesman on the Environment.


I am happy to be political spokesman for the provisional wing of the movement but need somebody a bit more diplomatic as my chief advisor.


Refur as media spokesperson


Furelli ...well he is Irish so weapons consultant and a prfoessional gambler so fundraising !


I nominate FRBRGR as President and Whitefox as Chief Executive administrator.




Any other nominees?

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We still need a technical advisor to keep all of these areas going. And of course that HAS to be AK!


Don't worry though AK. This job won't take more than maybe 14 hours or so per day!



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Okay AK your first mission should you choose to accept it is to hack into PETA's head office computer and send these to everyone on their email address list:



"there is something wrong with your math. It didn't take 40 dumb animals for me to look this good. more like 20.......:




.....however it took several hundred thousand dumb animals to make Ingrid Newkirk look this bad":




"Its me or the Tofu baby":




"I'd rather go naked in fur. "




This tape will self destruct in 30 seconds.

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Here's the thing... Most people I meet actually LIKE fur, at least a little bit. I'd guess, maybe, 75%. They may not be full-out fur lovers but, on some level, they think furs are nice.


If you ask them in PUBLIC, however, they will say, "Fur is bad!"


Basically, we have a whole nation of people being cowed by psychological abuse from a small minority of idiots. The whole point of my "Stand Up and Defend Yourself!" rant is to counter that abusive programming. I want people to think their OWN thoughts, not the thoughts of narrow-minded idiots.


I hear a lot of people repeating urban legends about women who wear fur getting paint thrown on them and being attacked by P∂TA-freak protesters. The truth is that this is, probably, 90% hearsay. Out of the other 10%, only a fraction of the people who have been accosted by P∂TA-freaks were actually physically attacked.


Again, when people understand the truth and have the self confidence to walk with their own convictions they won't be cowed by such nonsense. Then, in the one percent of situations when they are called on to defend themselves are able to act with their intellect rather than their emotions. (As much as possible.)


Let me put it this way: Your best defense is a good pair of sneakers.


If somebody tries to hurt you, tell them to leave you alone and walk away. If they try to follow you, RUN LIKE HELL! If they STILL try to hurt you, turn around, face them and give fair warning. The distinct, metal-on-metal sound of a round being racked into the chamber, "Cha-CHINK!", should be quite effective at stopping anybody who's got a modicum of good sense.


If, by this time, they haven't gotten the message it's clear that they are out to do you harm:

  • You told them to leave you alone. (1st Chance.)
  • You walked away. They followed. (2nd Chance.) (Call the police if you can!)
  • You ran. They gave chase. (3rd Chance.)
  • You warned them that you would defend yourself. They ignored it. (4th Chance.)
  • You gave them "Final Warning" that, if they didn't stop you would pull the trigger. (5th Chance.)


If, by this point, they haven't gotten the message they AREN'T GOING TO!

Take aim and pull the trigger two times. When the action is over, call the police if somebody hasn't already.


I can't stress enough that I am NOT advocating some kind of Clint Eastwood "Make My Day" vigilanteism! I am simply pointing out that you have the right to live your life the way you see fit without fear of intimidation from some low-minded criminal element.


Once people get comfortable with the idea that they CAN defend themselves if/when the time arises they won't walk around with the feeling that they NEED to defend themselves all the time. They will be confident enough to NOT get into bad situations BEFORE they happen and, in the small percentage of situations when something does happen that they can't control, they know what to do.


The first time I walked out, able to defend myself, it was a very strange feeling. I suddenly felt liberated, in a way. I didn't have to worry about bad things happening to me and, if something bad did happen, I didn't have to worry about it. That was several years ago and, though it feels "normal" to me now, I still have confidence when I go out.


Let me tell you a secret: The majority of the time, I don't carry a weapon. Frankly, I don't need it all the time. But, if I do need it, you can bet I'll be ready!


The main thrust of this is to tell people to wear their furs with confidence and know that 99.999% of the time nothing bad will happen and that in that 0.001% chance something bad does happen there is something that can be done about it.

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Thanks for the link and info touch I'll be toying with the calling card idea... might be able to condense it down a bit to a half page flyer, put a cool pic on the reserve side... well done with the idea I like it.


I still need to go local and print up some no peta stickers/shirts to have on hand, just haven't gotten to it yet. But people like this woman, who said my coat was so wrong, will regret opening their mouth with me from now on. I am going to write a formal letter of complaint to the store manager and one to the corporate department once I get their mailing info. I am going to call on Monday and ask who is the store manager and how do I make an appointment with them. So, she will be dealt with politely but effectively. I most definitely will tell them that they are getting very bad word of mouth from me, as I'm telling everyone I can not to shop there now. I'll let ya all know how it goes.


I watched that vid... and she is precisely what I complained about to the bbc in my email. One sided. Sure, she'll wear it for a bit and even like it, but she still puts that negative spin on it and it is very obvious. Where is the pro fur report?

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This thread is great..

What with TOS giving us the links and everybody chipping in with letters I hope change is on the horizon.


One thing, in trying to pull up the link to the EEC paper for a letter, in the Wiki the link is not stored. I could direct everyone to the 'Furden' wiki but that might be a poor idea.


So, any articles stored in the wiki, could we also have the hyperlink attached at the top of the page.



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the address for elder beerman corporate is:

Elder-Beerman Headquarters

2801 E. Market St.

York, PA 17402



the day did not lend time to return to the store, but i am going to get the info and talk to the store manager at least. i don't even care about her immediate manager, as the word will filter down without me.


i really like the calling card idea but this is what really needs to happen: we need a site that is separate from this one that can have all the info we can link to and information galore - then we pass out our business cards with the pic on it and a brief statement with a link to the site. i do not have the skill or time to do such a site but surely someone here can lend a hand and then we can print up our own cards as the independent representatives we would all be. any takers? i'll help with some photo content, as that is really all i can do now.


see that makes them think about it later not just at the moment. i often feel that these anti people get away without having to be made to feel bad the way they try to guilt me into feeling bad... not that it works, they just piss me off. but they should get that right back. i know it sounds childish and it is, as are they... so it would maybe serve to illuminate them a bit in the long run if they have this card and curiosity in mind.


since i have such an issue with vegetarians being high and mighty about their anti fur/animal use i thought i might ask how many plants did they kill in order to eat that day as a retort to how many animals died for my coat?


oh yeah, forgot to say some hippie chick w/boyfriend in tow walked past me as i was going into victoria's secret in the mall last night -she aksed if i knew how many animals had to die for me to look good... i gave her a similar reply as i gave to the sales lady, but she was walking on feeling superior already, ignoring me totally. that would have been a perfect time for me to have a card in hand. i despise the mall crowd i cannot say it enough but especially this time of year when joy and understanding is supposed to be so high on the list... yeah right! i knew that would come though, so i went ahead and wore the sheared mink and fox... a more eye catching number. let them have that to look at and shake their heads in disdain! they can have this as my present to them

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Q: "How many animals died to make that coat?"


A: "37. And it will be 38 if you don't shut your pie hole!"


Just kidding!


PS - Love that new avatar, Miss T!

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