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White Fox

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I just saw the President's address on TV.


Well... I'm never happy to think about anybody getting killed but I would certainly be glad to buy a round of beer for the guys who pulled the trigger.

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According to the statement made by the President, last night, the operation had been under way for about a week but Bin Laden was killed within the last day or so. I am skeptical of this information, however.


They claim that they tested his DNA to verify his identity but, from what I know about DNA testing, it takes at least two or three days to complete a DNA test.


Okay, this is the US government. Okay, this operation was run by the CIA. Okay, this was a top-priority mission.

Yes, I agree that the government would bring considerable resources to bear on this problem. However, just the logistics would take at least a day, not including the time to perform the science.


The clock starts ticking when Bin Laden hits the ground. The ground forces have to secure the battle field. Then they bring in corpsman to haul away the body. It would take a few hours to get this far, I assume. They have to transport the body to a place where it can be taken to a secure location for examination. Given the resources the military has at its disposal, they could fly a team in by helicopter and retire to a friendly base in another hour or so.


At this point, under normal circumstances, it could take three days to run a series of tests, including DNA tests, to verify identity. A standard DNA test for paternity takes at least three days and it can take a week to ten days for a full work-up. Then, finally, a report must be compiled and sent to the chain of command, at which point it if forwarded to the President.


Once the President has the information, I could not imagine he would make a "cold" statement. Somebody would have to brief him on all the evidence. Somebody would have to write a speech. He would have to rehearse it. The news media would have to be alerted and a press conference would have to be set up. The information would have to be broadcast to the world. This part could be done rather quickly. During the World Trade Center disaster, the President was on the podium within hours. I have no doubt the President's speech, last night, was set up in a similar amount of time.


Now, I would agree that many things were set into motion simultaneously. With electronic communication, the information could be transmitted nearly instantly and the political process of disseminating the facts could be done within hours.


I can't imagine this whole time line could be completed in less than 24 hours. I think 72 hours is more like it.


The President's statements were somewhat vague about the actual time of the killing. He did say the operation began some time within the last week but he didn't actually say the exact time it took place.


Owing to the resources the government has to bear on the problem, I'll say 48 hours but I don't think it was any less than that.

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I heard that Bin Laden was killed a week ago in a bombing and they delayed announcing it until DNA tests were complete.


As always with such a story, the real truth may not be known for several months.

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One can run DNA finger prints pretty fast. All you need is some epithelial cells (yeah I watch CSI, but I also work in a lab). Once you have the epithelial cells, you need to amplify the amount of DNA that is present in the sample using PCR. My guess would be two to four hours of cycling. PCR is polymerase chain reaction. I talked about this today in class. Kary Mullis won the Nobel Prize in chemistry for inventing PCR. At any rate, it could happen pretty quickly.


My question is though, so we have a DNA finger print. So what! How do we know it's Bin Laden's DNA?? We need a reference sample to compare it to. Without that, it's useless!


The other thing is not only will it disrupt THAT PART OF THE WORLD, it will disrupt ALL THE WORLD (just watch fuel prices in the next few weeks). Sorry if I seem pessimistic, but my son is a corpsman in the Navy. Yeah, he CHOSE TO JOIN, YEAH I'm concerned. Interestingly, when he went to his "A" school (A stands for advanced) in Illinois, his class was told that ALL MALE CORPSMAN ARE "GOING GREEN". Typically Navy corpsman go green or go blue. Going green is with the Marines while going blue is with the Navy. Not only that my son's class was about 300. After he graduated the new incoming class was 600 corpsman! When he told me that "all male corpsman were going green, I thought "they're getting ready for something". When my son saw the the incoming class of corpsman was 600 he thought "they're getting ready for something" Plus many of his fellow corpsman's orders changed. Typically about 75% of corpsman get trained in some field like x-ray tech or O.R. assisting while 25% are field medical trained. He said that has completely reversed, 75% are getting field medical training while only 25% are getting "professional" training. Could this be the "something"?


But I'm with you, I think it had to happen two or three days ago.


The last item of "fishyness" (pun intended). They dispose of the body at sea!!?? So now we have NO EVIDENCE that "the body is actually Bin Laden's. I just am not sure.


Yeah, call me cynical. I'm not sure I buy into "conspiracy theory", but I'm just not so sure I believe everything we are being told.


My $0.02

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In other words, what are the chances that body is still stored away in an air tight vault somewhere for further use if needed! Chances are we will never hear from anyone from the ship that threw him overboard.


This does sound very much like a story to satisfy the Muslim folks. You would probably have to show someone his grave. Bring him to sea, and you never have to.


Let's see now. My bet would be .......


Had they allowed one Muslim leader to see it, then they would have known it was done. Now, that will follow them forever.



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I forgot that there are two main methods of DNA analysis that can be used and that PCR analysis can be done a lot quicker.


They do have a reference sample. Several years ago, bin Laden's sister died of cancer. They took brain, blood and tissue samples from her body, after she died, specifically for the purpose. I didn't know about this yesterday. I saw a reference to it on CNN news, last evening, while I was working at the computer.


I think burial at sea is the best option. Much the same way Hitler's body was hidden after the end of WWII, the authorities don't want bin Laden to become a martyr. Keeping the burial location secret is a good idea whether it was buried at sea or some place else. Frankly, I don't care what happens to his flea-bitten carcass. Dead is dead. That's what matters.


I can't imagine why any government would lie about a thing like this. If it ever came out that he wasn't really dead it would cause big, big problems. It could be enough to bring down the administration.


There is no good reason to lie about it and there are lots of bad things that could happen if somebody did.

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Governments Lie.


Governments Lie ALL THE TIME.


How do you know when they are ling? When their lips are moving



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I agree but there is a difference between bullshitting and flat-out lying.


Details are being obfuscated. Facts are being distorted to make things look better than they really are but I think the essential kernel is true. Another one bit the dust. That I am sure of.


Do I think they got him mere hours before the announcement? No! I think they got him several days ago and are just, now, publicizing it. I gave you the reasons why I think that.


Do I think events unfolded the way the news is saying? No! It virtually never happens the way we see it in the news. In fact, I don't even think they meant to go after bin Laden. I don't even think they knew bin Laden was in that house. I think they went in for some other reason and stumbled into the flea-bitten bastard then claimed that they knew it all along.


I think it was a lucky accident and they are just bullshitting like the way people do when they are shooting pool and they sink the 8-ball off the break then say, "I meant to do that."


I am certain that they are making up stories about burial at sea. They have good reason to do it. They don't want a martyr. They don't want his grave to be a shrine but they have to satisfy the critics who say that the body has been desecrated. I don't know if they really buried his ass at sea but I don't really want to know and I don't really care. Dead is dead, no matter how you slice it.


Like I said, if bin Laden really isn't dead but they held a world wide press conference to say so and it ever comes out that they lied about that essential fact, it would bring down the government.


I am certain that there is a fair amount of BS-ing going on. I know that we're ass deep in it and it's getting higher every second but I am also certain that they aren't flat-out lying.

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Well, for everything to fit into certain folks timelines, the Pakistani tweeting from Abbotabad must have been in on it too, as he was tweeting to the world at the exact same time the attack was taking place.


All SEALs were wearing headcams.... linked to Command HQ via satellite and so folks could see it as and when it happened.


I sorta have my doubts that they actually brought bin Laden with them, because they knew that high ranking couriers were visiting the place.


As for facial recognition... well when I come back to Oz I slide my passport into a reader... move to a gateway where my face is scanned, and if it is me, the doors open and I am allowed home. Just have to get luggage and clear customs (and I don't buy furs OS for THAT reason LOL.. well, not to bring back on me WEG)


Since it was a CIA/Naval op, I think it is fair to say that facial recognition could have been quite easily done on the spot, via aforementioned satellite comms. The DNA... a bit beyond my scope of knowledge, but having samples of blood relatives readings... and I dunno what paraphernalia US SEALs carry with them or in their copters. All we have been told is that SEALs did the fighting, with no mention of back-up troops.


As for the burial at sea.... Well, they COULD have paraded him before the world.... they COULD have left him there to rot, but the Muslim/Islamic washing ritual and burial at sea does away with a physical reminder of a figurehead as well as showing due religious respect for it is Al Quaeda the war is against, not Islam. Next to go will be the building I'd say. Remember that the Germans destroyed not only Hitler's bunker but also Eagle's Nest, and although tourists can get to that site in summer, it is closely controlled and there ain't that much to see, other than the view. SO the burial at sea alleviates that possibility (Shrine) as well as a grave site to visit (Shrine).


ANyways, what would an Aussie know


And as a side bar: Watched the White House Pres corps dinner on youtube and saw the baking of Donald Trump. When the President made the line about having to fire Gary Busey would have given him sleepless nights, I'd sworn blind he was looking directly at the First Lady. Given the next 24 hrs events.....


Oh and in Oz, a couple of newspaper columnists were wondering when the first conspiracy theories would appear. To my knowledge they were on the "Politico" website

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A Pakistani TV network had external vision of the firefight taken by an amateur camaraman (probably on an iphone ) . They ran it with the crawler slap bang in the middle of the images, but guess that is one way of getting your name in the news LOL

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I think the shooting took place when it is said it happened. The verification is the destruction of the helicopter that hit the wall with the blades, that required the local fire dept to respond to and contain. It has been all over the news that it was a stealth chopper and the bits and pieces were collected by the locals and shipped off to places unknown (china was speculated).


I also like to idea of burial at sea so there is no chance of a memorial site which would be a bad thing.


As for the speed of the DNA test I would suspect the Seals carried tissue collection kits (most likely part of a standard med kit) to get material to be used for a DNA test. The same kit could be used to collected samples for pathogen testing. A US aircraft carrier would have the equipment to preform a DNA test quickly. I am a fan and watcher of NCIS.

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