Split Topic

[FrBrGr]

In the thread, "Are You a Dog Person or a Cat Person?" Unclejoe420 related his experience about having to euthanize a pet cat. A response was made to that, and I was about to respond to that, but saw that my response would throw the whole thread off-topic. So - I am starting a new thread. Worker 11811's response to Unclejoe420 is first, followed by my thoughts . . .

 

I know it's sad to put a pet to sleep but take solace in the fact that you did the right thing.

 

I believe it is the owner's responsibility to take care of their pets in all phases of their lives, including their death.

 

We domesticated these animals. We made them dependant on us. If it wasn't for us, they wouldn't be alive in the first place. Therefore, it is OUR responsibility to be sure they don't suffer at the end of their life.

 

I really HATE it when people who try to keep animals alive for their own emotional benefit when they KNOW they are sick and in pain.

 

I'm sorry to hear you lost your pet but let me give you a quick bit of applause for doing the right thing. " title="Applause" />

 

This would probably be a good topic by itself, but I was thinking . . . Shouldn't this same philosophy apply to those people we love in our life? Euthanasia has always been a highly controversial subject, but I know if I was suffering from a terminal illness, I would much rather save myself the anguish, and perhaps even more important, spare those who love me the anguish, and have it all ended for me. Then I think - What kind of pressure would that put on someone else to end my life? How would I feel if my wife, my mother, my sister or my best friend asked me to end their life? Could I do it? Then there are the legal questions. In such a situation, should this be considered murder? I mean, in the US it would be considered murder - but should it be? There are philosophical as well as legal, moral and even religious (Thou shalt not kill . . .) arguments against it, but does that really mean it's wrong?

 

What say you . . . ?

[ReFur]

Boy, FrBrGr, that is a very heavy subject!

 

When I consider my own life ...it does seem simple.

 

But, when I consider another person's life ...that is when it gets very difficult for me. For the same reasons that you mention.

 

I do agree though. We would never allow our pets to suffer, or go through what we do with our loved ones.

 

Linda

[Guest]

Well I totally agree with the animal issue. Especially for xample with horses who brak their legs. Yoy can's explin to them that they have to stand still for 6 months while it mends; so it is cruel. Amputaion is the only option and then suspension from a sling for the remainder of its life.

The bullet is the kindest option.

 

HOWEVER...when the definition of suffering is interpreted by the PETAphiles, that means ALL animals domesticated are suffering so its correct to euthanise all of them. Get the drift? We have now no way in the UK for example to stop the callous slaughter of 100 000 animals a year by the RSPCA because the law doesn't see it that way.

 

NOW IF you then extend that law to people...you see the problem. Again that is how it started in Nazi germany. If you allow euthanasia for those suffering, then those who are sub human like the physically deformed and mentally ill; then you extend that definition to Jews...you arrive at the final solution.

 

There is NO WAY that euthanasia can EVER be allowed sadly because it will be abused by governments and individuals. I watched my friend look like he was dying of a brain tumour, ad been in a coma for 6 weeks and on life support; and all his relatives demanding he be put out of his misery. He had a miraculous recovery and now is fit and well and has rightly cut them out of his considerable will when he found what they had been doing. See the problem? Also hospitals are all too quick to do it anyway if they get the chance if the injured or comatosed person is carrying a donor card.

[Worker 11811]

People have the abiltiy to make up their own mind whether it is time for them to die or not. Animals don't. There lies the critical difference.

 

If I am too sick to make up my own mind (e.g.: Comatose or on life support or suffering from severe dementia.) I have left instructions to "pull the plug". Furthermore, if the situation is extreme, I have left instructions with my wife that she can order an overdose of drugs to be given if necessary.

 

Humans can say whether they are in pain or they can leave instructions as to their treatment if they become incapacitated. Animals can't talk, so we have no way of knowing what they want.

 

But we can make some pretty good guesses. You can assume that your pets are happy when they run and play with you. If they eat and sleep and go to the litterbox in a normal manner, you can assume they are healthy unless there are outward signs of disease. Conversely, you can assume that, if they aren't active like normal, if they don't eat, sleep and eliminate normally or if they show signs of disease, they ARE sick.

 

When an animal is too sick or injured to live normally, it is time to decide what to do. Maybe you can get your vet to give your pet enough drugs to make it comfortable until the end comes. Put "Rover" in his favorite spot next to the firelpace, give him a warm blanket and his favorite toy. Let him be comfortable until the end comes naturally.

 

If your pet is severely sick or injured, there may be no other choice but to put it out of its misery. Maybe you will take "Rover" out for one last walk in the woods but put a pistol in your coat pocket. Maybe you'll take him to the vet for an injection. That's for you and "Rover" to decide.

 

Sometimes it seems like we give our animals better end-of-live care than we give other humans. Doesn't it? All I ask is that, when the time comes, I be given the same consideration that people give to "dumb animals"!

 

----------

 

Secondarily, ToS mentioned that P∂TA-freaks maintain that all animals suffer in captivity or domestication. Use the same criteria we judge when the end has come to determine whether animals suffer in captivity.

 

Does your dog run and play with you? Does your cat chase the toy mouse? Does your horse seem to live for its daily run around the track? Do they eat and sleep normally? Do they do things that make them seem happy enough? We have to judge for ourselves. But, overwhelmingly, our pets and animals SEEM to be happy enough.

 

It is presumtious for somebody to say otherwise because, somehow, they claim to know better. "How do you KNOW they are happy?", they may question. This argument can not stand because it is circular logic. Neither do we know they are UNhappy." On those grounds this argument can not be used. Thus, we must fall back to the question of whether, by reasonable judgement, do animals SEEM to be happy.

 

But, no matter HOW you judge an pet's happiness, the basic responsibility of the human to the animal remains the same. It is up to us to take care of them to the best of our ability, in life as well as death!

[Guest]

The problem is legal interpretation Worker. Definitions in law can blur and change and that is the problem. It is so open to abuse. A government could decide for example that ALL cancer patients should be euthanised.

Some doctors are already asking for that so you can see the problem; especially for smokers who "brought it on themselves".

 

And there are countless people walking around today whose relatives wanted to terminate them too.

[Worker 11811]

With the exception of capital crimes, the government has no right to determine whether a person should die! ZERO!!

 

The individual has the absolute right to decide for himself!

 

My wife and I have talked this over. My instructions are:

 

If I am incapacitated on life support, I am to be kept alive for 30 days. At this time, she is to consult with the doctors and get a second opinion, if necessary. If there is no improvement and the doctors don't think there is any chance, she is to pull the plug.

 

If I suffer from dementia or am in great pain she has my permission to overdose me with drugs until I expire.

 

I hope the day never comes but she has told me that her wishes are similar.

 

I have also told my family of this conversation and they know what my wife's instructions are.

 

Governments can't decide that people suffering from a disease should be euthanized. The drug companies would sic their lawyers on them so fast, the ink wouldn't have a chance to dry on the paper! There is too much money to be made from developing and selling anti-cancer drugs and treatments!

 

The ONLY possible exception to this would be a major, catastrophic public health crisis like a worldwide germ-warfare epidemic. Infected people could be euthanized to protect the uninfected populace. But that is such a ludicrious "Si-Fi Novel" plot that it isn't even worth considering.

[Guest]

You have constirtutional rights. Ours are established only by legal precedent . The government totally control our health service in the UK.

May work there but would be scary as f*** here. They already have a policy unspoken of letting old cancer patients die.

[ReFur]

TOS,

 

My Mother was in a nursing home for about 5 years that is about 4 hours from me. They were very kind to her there and my Dad visited for three to four hours a day with her. My Sisters feed her almost every night.

 

She had sever dementia. Weighed about 90 pounds. Very fragile, with no quality of life the last few months. She did not respond to my family and refused eye contact when they tried to cheer her up.

 

Her Doctor took her off a medicine, that if you do, the elder will stop wanting to eat. My Dad and my Sister will listen to Doctors, where I will say WTF!! So, they believed the Doctor must be right and allowed it.

 

And, of course, Mom stopped eating and taking her medicines and within two weeks was sent to Intensive care. Within days they informed my Dad and Sister that Mom needed to be taken back to the Nursing home to die peacefully.

 

Do I know this Doctor killed my Mother? Yes!! Absolutely!! Do I believe he knew full well what would happen? Absolutely!! There was no reason to change her medicine. He said it was a needless medication. That was his reason. Yea, Right!!

 

Am I angry? No ...how do I know it was not answering my Mother's prayers to finally be allowed to be at peace? I KNOW my Mother would have wanted to die. My Mother's greatest fear was this exact thing would happen to her. To her it was a prison with no escape.

 

Now my Mom is at Peace. It was just a year ago now, in fact. I will always miss her.

 

Linda