Somebody help me please

[introalfa]

Hi all. Recently I was surfing on the web and I've found a site named jlodown.com, and I've seen some videos posted there. Scary images of animals skinned alive made me cry. It really hurts to see how men without heart or common sense get the fur of those animals while they're still alive, and it hurts to see their bloody bodies too. I adore furs since I was born, I have no doubt about it, and furs are almost my reason of living, but hey...after seeing those videos I was almost changing my mind about it. I'm feeling sad, I dream of those bloody and skinned alive animals every night, and that raccoon watching the camera with those incredible eyes...oh, it's really painful, and the way they beat the heads of the animals made me cry too. After this painful experience (I wish I was not surfing the web that night), I need some help. My whole life adoring women in fur is collapsing, please someone tell me what can I do after the bad discovery I've made watching those videos (we all know: to get some furs you must kill a lot of animals, it's not new for us), but the way they get the furs is not correct, I think. What can you say about it? Must I keep loving women in furs or not? I'm shocked, please somebody help me. Thanks a lot, and forget my English (I hope you understand me).

[Earendil]

These videos are PETA propaganda material more than anything else. I also hear rumours that some of these videos are even staged by PETA to enduce fright and desperation among younger minds who will not the take time to look at both sides of the coin.

 

Yes, the videos are horrific. But I can assure you that they are nothing but a microscopic fragment of the fur industry as we know it, if they are even real. PETA has done sicker things than make scary videos in the past, so I wouldn't be surprised if they were all staged. In any way, 99.9% of the fur industry does not involve anything remotely near what you have seen in these videos. Remember, to get a valuable and good fur pelt, the animal must have a genuine good and healthy life. And be killed in a humane way -- As such are the laws of both the fur trade, and the ethic part of most human brains. Any known furrier in the world will dispice this "method" of retrieving fur as much as any PETA member -- And so this tells me, with more than enough confidence, that the videos are either the "exception of the rule", or as I mentioned earlier, staged PETA stunts for weaker minds.

 

You'll find the same things if you draw red lines to other given situations and trades around the world. Police brutality for instance - Yeah it happens. Does it mean all men and women of the law are corrupted and evil? No.

 

What about war? You hear of soldiers raping and pillaging. Does this make all soldiers rotten to the heart? No. Most of them are proud, noble warriors - risking their lives for their own freedom and soil.

 

Hell, we can draw the red line all the way out;

 

Bad people. Murderers, rapists, thieves, scammers, pedophiles etc. There are many wicked persons in the world. Does this make humanbeings bad? No. Most humans are good people.

 

You will always find an odd part out, in any category you browse. Trickery and evil is found in every corner of the world - But so is kindness and good.

 

Remember;

 

There is no reality -- Only perception.

Edited August 3, 2006 by Guest

[allfurme]

Is this some sort of joke?

Are you one of those antis?

 

How many times must it be pointed out that they do not skin animals alive (unless someone is filming it and the perpetrator is getting paid to do it).

 

For goodness sake what would they want to skin an animal alive for? It would be far too labour intensive. It is far easier to skin a dead animal as it would not move around. Skinning an animal alive would cost too much money, fur farming must be expensive enough.

 

It would be like operating on someone without anaesthetic. Firstly it would be very difficult and secondly you would be paying valueable nursing staff to hold the patient down; thus wasting time and money.

 

I am looking at this point of purely from an economics point of view and not because i love fur.

[Earendil]

allfurme brings up an extremely good point here, and I couldn't agree more.

 

His arguement alone renders the topic solved.

[introalfa]

allfurme: I'm not an ANTI, right? Furs are within me since I was in my mother's belly, no doubt about it as I said before. And I know that PETA is very tricky, they can even pay for making scary videos like those I saw. And the "money argument" perhaps is true, you may be right. Earendil opened up my eyes, because I just needed a word of quietness. I'm very new in the PETA stuff, I'm just trying to learn how they "work" reading forums, blogs, news and stuff like that. And I don't know them so much, but I feel that I hate them because they can be the evil people that wants to steal my love for furs. Anyway, thanks for the replies, I can keep enjoying my love, right?

 

Regards, folks.

[White Fox]

Intro, there is not a lot to add to what these folks said. Could it be that somewhere, some time, someone has skinned animals alive? It is possible. But ask yourself this. Why would they photograph that? Unless they were wanting to use it for PETA purposes.

 

There are a few very evil people in the world. Yes, some are in US and Canada. Some are in Britain and China. Some are in Egypt and Argentina. We cannot tell you that there is absolutely no chance that anyone in the world does that to animals. We can tell you that the chances of it being done very often is not slim. It is nil!

 

I am sure you have saw images of war that you have to convince yourself to forget. Just like that you must forget these images that PETA would have you believe are happening all of the time.

 

Hope that helps.

W

[Worker 11811]

I don't really want to start talking about religion but, in this case, it's part of my story so I include it as a personal example... NOT because I'm trying to tell you what religion you should belive in. Got that?

 

I was "saved" by Jesus when I was in college. I went to church every week for several years and I was active in Bible study and all that. One day I read about the Dead Sea Scrolls that said Jesus was crucified on the cross but lived and was secreted away in a monastary... All that "DaVinci Code" stuff. But this happened in 1989, before the book and the movie came out.

 

I couldn't stop reading about this and I was convinced that the Dead Sea Scrolls tell the truth... or at least a part of the truth that most people don't hear.

 

I was busted up inside for MONTHS! Everything I was taught came crumbling down. I was in shock.

 

I spoke to my minister and asked her if the scrolls were true. What she said shocked me even more! She said "There's probably some truth to them but nobody will ever know for sure."

 

She finally took me aside and said that I have to be the one who decides what the truth is, NOT some book and NOT some scrolls they found in the desert.

 

What it all comes down to is that YOU have to make up YOUR OWN mind as to what is good and bad... NOT what some propoganda video tells you to believe.

 

You want to know my opinion? Those anti-fur people are F***ed in the head. They'll do anything to get you to believe their message. INCLUDING killing animals.... Just to get people to do what you are doing right now... question their own beliefs.

 

But, don't let me tell you what's right. You make up your own mind. But, the important thing is that you act in a way that's consistent with your beliefs.

[moneypenny]

People with agendas will go to many extremes to make people believe there lies are truths.

[FrBrGr]

You did see who owns the site, didn't you? PETA. That should explain everything . . .

 

Think, man - think!!!

[FrBrGr]

introalfa, you may find this thread to be very interesting:

 

http://thefurden.com/bbden/viewtopic.php?t=2989

 

Please go to that website and be sure to read all of Fox's posts. Click on all of his links. He has done a masterful job debating some PETA perverts, and has presented some very eye-opening evidence about the real face of PETA.

[Guest]

You did see who owns the site, didn't you? PETA. That should explain everything . . .

 

Think, man - think!!!

 

Thats the perfect answer for this topic.

Good call Brg!

[Worker 11811]

introalfa;

 

I don't know why but your post has been on my mind ever since I read it yesterday. I've been thinking about you all day.

 

Why does the fact that animals die to make your fur suddenly bother you when it didn't before?

 

Did you not know this? Or, were you somehow able to put it out of your mind?

Why would such a video suddenly throw you into such a state of shock?

 

When somebody has such a dramatic emotional break that they are kept awake at night by nightmares, there is usually something else going on behind the scenes. The event that the person reports as being the cause of the problem is rarely the real cause. There is almost always something else bothering the person. Either they don't know it or they won't admit it.

 

When my problems start to bother me, I dream about owls. They haunt me and keep me awake at night. Almost every time it's NOT the owls that are really bothering me. It's something else. I'm not here to talk about my psychological issues so I won't go into detail.

 

I'll bet you, dollars to donuts, that your nightmares about animals being skinned alive for their fur isn't what's really bothering you. I'll give you a 99% guarantee that there is something else.

 

What I said before still stands: YOU have to be the one to make up your mind whether you still love fur or not. But I don't think that issue is going to be solved until you are able to look inside yourself and decide what it is that's REALLY bothering you.

[introalfa]

Well, folks, I was reading all your posts, and I wanna say some things. First of all, thanks a lot to you all because your words really helped me. Everyone had explained here opinions, thoughts and personal experiences, and I've learned a lot. Second, I had some experiences these last days that made me feel that I am the same furlover I've been before. The weather was so cold here last week...I saw women in furs in the streets and in a recent party where I have been last Saturday, and seeing those furs really shocked me, but in the best way. My heart was beating as ever, I really enjoyed seeing those women with their furs, and I said to myself "I'm the same furlover I knew". Fortunately, I didn't change my mind. I'll try to learn more about PETA and their evil way to show scary things (made fot themselves, no doubt). I can breathe again, I didn't change. Thanks folks, and thanks for your words. Regards to you all.

 

P.S.: I hope you understand my English, it's not my native language, and sometimes it's very hard to write what I want to tell. Thanks for your patience.

[Guest]

Hi introlafa.

I have posted some imporatnt links you should look at all of them. One from the university of south dakota actually tells the truth about how the naimlas are really euthanised, including lethal injection the same as how you would have your old dog put to sleep. Howver this has problems even...becsue for example native people want to eat the meat, so they couldn't do that as it makes it poison.

There is mo such thing as a nice death for an animla, only a good death;

a clean and quick one so it doeas not suffer. The alternatives to using animals as an infinitely renwable resource are too horrendous to contemplate. If PETA win this war it will mean the greatest mass extinctions on the planet as we plunder the wilderness for alternatives. The when we use all those up, its soylent green time.

 

So not only should you not have doubts, you should stand proud for your love of fur. People who wear fur are giving the pplanet and all its animlas a fighting chance of survival.

 

In the Universoty of south dakota post, they actually say that ending fur farming will cause extinctions in the wild through pressure on habitats by alternative land use .

 

Please go to the thread started by Miss Theresa on "myspace warning" to see the links, including links to conservationist documents.

[introalfa]

Thanks TOS, I'll be there right now. Regards.

[Lil Dragonfly]

Hi! I'm new here

 

Some things I found:

Blu Dragonfly, Welcome to The Den! One of our rules is to not allow Pro-PETA links. So, it has been removed - Hope the previous posts help answer your questions.

 

Linda, MOD

 

http://www.furcommission.com/video/index.htm

 

Two very different views of the fur industry.

 

Somebody help me, I'm confused...

[Mr Barguzin]

Read the previous posts and that will clear your mind of any doubts.

[Lil Dragonfly]

When you go to buy meat, it comes already separated into 2 catagories; "regular" and "free range". You know exactly what you are getting.

 

So why don't they just label the fur coats "made in USA" or "made in China"?

[Mr Barguzin]

In the US they are required to state from whence the pelts came.... ergo either Finland, Russia, Canada, China etc.

 

As for manufactuiring... you can always ask.

[Fox]

FrBrGr, thanks for pointing that out and thanks for the kind regards. I did indeed take some pride in that. Sadly, my access has been denied and they even deleted my messages. *grumble grumble grumble*

 

Intro,

 

These following excerpts are from the Fur Information Council of America(www.fur.org):

 

PETA and other animal rights groups routinely distribute graphic videos of animals being tortured or living in horrifying conditions. Have you seen these videos? What do you think of them?

Yes, we've seen them. We have asked for verification of authenticity on these tapes and have never received it. And, in fact, in a number of recent cases it has been proven that the footage was staged in order to create these "snuff films". Remember that our industry is regulated at the local, state and national levels. Our members follow strict guidelines for animal care that have been established with the guidance of the American Veterinary Medical Association. If there is a farm where these conditions exist we hope it will be brought to our attention so that we can work with the proper authorities in addressing the issue.

 

How can you justify the horrible conditions that exist for animals on farms?

Animal rights activists prey upon emotions by distributing false propaganda and fabricated materials about conditions on fur farms. Our farmers follow the guidelines for care and management set forth by the American Veterinary Medical Association. In fact, we are very proud of our farmers and their farms. It is interesting to note that, for example, the life span of a mink on the farm exceeds that of a mink in the wild, and the farmed mink is healthier and stronger than his wild counterpart. It is only in the farmer's interest, from an economic standpoint, to raise the strongest, healthiest animals possible for they will be worth the most at market.

 

 

Hopefully this answers a few things.

[Guest]

Did you know that on fur farms in Europe, such is the intensity of the concentration on welfare, that EEC inspectors noticed that the kennel maids on fur farms wore blue overalls when grooming and playing ( yes that is right they play with them)and feeding the mink, and someone like a VET would have to wear white overalls becsue he may cause apprehension/anxiety. Thus when the mink were approached by their usual handlers, or someone like an inspector whi wasbn't going to manhandle them like a vet would, or any other visitor, the mink would be competely comforatble with the humans by seeing blue overalls. As the Vet would only come ocassionally anxiety caused by humans was kept to a minimum.

 

 

The inspectors proposed this for all fur farms and even more human contact, as they pointed out the more the animlas were handled, the happier they were.

 

DO CHICKENS GET ANY OF THAT?

 

DO YOU GET THAT WHEN YOU TAKE YOUR CAT TO THE VET OR HAVE A DNETIST TO YOUR HORSE?

 

No. Farmed furbearers are on the front line of animal welfare ideas.

Sadly the inspectors also asked for the practice of showing live animlas at fur auctions and shows be stopped. That is stupid bcuse it showed the public that the naimlas were neaither stressed or in poor health.

 

Contrary to many AR staged videos mnay furbearers are put to sleep the same way as your old pet too. ALL chinchilla have that mercy death. Of course you cannot use the meat etc then that is the problem.

 

Did you know that sable in the wild live even in areas where they are not hunted, for a maximum of 8 years (oldest recorded. The average is less than 2. On fur farms they are observed to live until 18 years old if they are stud animals.

 

Earlier in this thread I posted a link to the University of dakita's findings. They conclude that if fur farming is stopped, the alternative land use would be highly detrimental to habitats and almost certainly lead to many animal extinctions.

 

Waht I would like to see is the same kind of protection in welfare terms that furbearers have for chickens and calves destined for veal. Aswell as a better sysrem than the indistrial abbatoris where animals can regularly die a horrendous death by not being properly stunned.

 

 

I have been to several fur farms and found the animlas very well cared for and very tame. No different to breeding for pets. None at all.

 

Pressure form within the legitimate fur trade on China has led to them camcelling their fashion/trade show until they can get their act together.

 

You can tell where the animlas come from because furriers are very well informed. Often if they design themsleves, they will have items MADE in China, but they have selected the pelts individually from the auctions...so they know exactly which farm or trade group of wild fur producers have come from.

 

You only have to look at a quality fur to see the animals were treated well.

 

the European fur farms have taken the lead in adopting the recommendations of behavioural experts because it improves quality and quantity of yeild. You reap what you sow in the fur trade. They sell you dreadfully poor meat in supermarkets because urban people do not know the difference. Fur buyers and sellers are much more informed.

 

I have a yakut fox hat and it even has the regional stamp on the pelts. Find me one on a recontsituted ham or a battery chicken with that.

 

Welcome Blu Dragonfly and I hope you research my posts in this thread to realise the truth is not onlt far better than PETA suggest, but also far better than you could possibly imagine! Welcome.

 

Als realise that if for example you buy a Blackgalma coat, that means in comes from the Great Lakes American Mink Association. So with most furs the clue to where it came from is in the pride of the manufacturers.

SAGA is another. That way you absoultely know where your fur comes from and it has met the highest imagineable welfare standards.

 

To the point where for example, the expert knowlege of care and handling

on farms produces much better rates of successful breeding than zoos and wildlife parks. Several farms now breed LYNX especially for that purpose and NOT for fur.; including a very famous farm near Moscow.

[Ravens8]

Good info Touch

 

I'm feeling guilty that I'm not contributing to many of the threads on the fur den. But really there is so much good stuff being said, by such clear thinking people here, that i really cant add anything further to most threads.

[ReFur]

When you go to buy meat, it comes already separated into 2 catagories; "regular" and "free range". You know exactly what you are getting.

 

So why don't they just label the fur coats "made in USA" or "made in China"?

 

 

There are international and USA labeling laws.

 

These govern names used, source of pelts and country manufactured. But, there is a lot of abuse coming out of China. Such as "sheared mink", many times is in the weasel family, but is not mink.

 

Trims they do not have to conform to labeling laws.

 

Also, on the meat labeling: It is being bastardized by USA corporations that it no longer can be trusted, either. Same with organic labels.

 

Linda

[Lil Dragonfly]

Wow I have learned a lot today! Thanks everyone

 

I think it's time to tell the truth...

 

I came on this board not as a fur-wearer, but as an animal-rights activist in disguise. My purpose was to spy on the boards to find out which supermodels are wearing fur these days.

 

Not anymore though. You guys have enlightened me.

 

Posted some pretty fur-wearing pics in the other forum if anyone wants to see them!

[Guest]

Which forum?